Episodes – 12
Video – 1280×720, 1920×1080, crf 16
Audio – 2.0 FLAC (24 bit)
Subs – R1
720p – Torrent
1080p – Torrent
it’s really a question of how to make use of the limited space in release (/folder/file) names of reasonably length. Video and audio codec choice comes with much more general compatiblity and quality implications than specific encoding settings. if you want to add information of higher level of detail (like 10-bit encoding) the only reasonable thing would be to consider all other parameters (bitrate,reframes, level compat. etc) on the same level of detail that could possibly be relevant to the reason you are giving detailed information to begin with (compatibility).
From that point of view you could even justify the Hi10P tag if you tag all other levels accordingly (Hi@4.1 …). But why bother now when nobody cared for level tags before hi10p, even though they were relevant to standalone compatibility? Your media player obviously has decent h264 support, many other players have huge issues playing back anything beyond l4.1, some ridiculuously expensive tablets play nothing beyond firstname.lastname@example.org … why is this getting relevant for tagging only now?
I think what ZeRO is getting at here is that a bit of neophobia (fear of new stuff) is driving this desire for tags, that folks are somewhat uncomfortable about their ability to use this new technology and, so, want a way to easily steer around it. That’s kinda sad.
Nothing’s wrong with being mistrustful of technology, especially really “cutting edge” stuff that may not play nice with others. It’s been a constant theme in our science-fiction literature for decades now, indicating that it plays on a deep-rooted part of the human psyche.
On the other hand, folks, this is just a video encoding technology, and a pretty good one by any usual standard. The players show every sign of catching up with it even now, and this will likely become a non-issue in the next several months. Soon, we’ll all be enjoying the benefits of Hi10P and wondering about what will be coming next. So it goes…
And what does human psyche have to do with the ability to play stuff on less than 20% of things that they use to play these movie? And at least wanting to know that before they dl it? (As I said before I’m NOT against Hi10p, I love new stuff)
The reason I say it’d be good is because of the advent of low power htpc-s and tablets. I have a Core2Quad that can play everything easily, but even so if I have the chance to play it on something that uses less power, I’ll do it. It’d be just good to know that I at least have/don’t have a chance to play it in dxva/on a player. (and before you start saying that players have low compatibility in everything else, okay…but I tried many movies that aren’t dxva compliant and can still play without visible glitches /w dxva; and that’s the only way to play something 720p+ on an ion or zacate htpc)
I’m trying to use HTML tags for the first time here, so bear with me if I miss a closer or something.
Before getting started here: I finally pulled down the first episode of Ao no Exorcist, and I’m looking forward to viewing it. Thanks in advance to the nice folks here who do the work I enjoy.
I’m not necessarily against tagging Hi10P, I just don’t see where, given what’s already been said, that any of the stuff coming from here will bear a Hi10P tag, and that’s their call.
“And what does human psyche have to do with the ability to play stuff on less than 20% of things that they use to play these movie?”
In your particular case, probably very little (but I wouldn’t rule it out entirely – I don’t really know you well enough yet). You seem relatively unafraid of newer technologies – this may not be true for everyone, though, and I was speaking generally. I didn’t mean for you to take it personally.
As to tablets and other less compatible devices, what I was implying is that sooner or later they will catch up. One of the risks of being an early adopter of new stuff is that one frequently gets buyer’s remorse as the more improved products in the second and third wave of development are placed on the market and earlier platforms are obsoleted.
The crux of ZeRO’s earlier point is: why now? He points to the answer, namely, Hi10P. Nobody was worried about anything as long as their player of choice could view anime’ from here without any problems. Now that this is not necessarily the case, a lot of folks are reacting predictably in a resistive manner toward this new technology. I was exploring some of the possible reasons for that instead of a more general willingness to embrace this new tech and its possible benefits.
Now I’m wondering how representative this comment thread is of the more general cross-section of folks that view anime’ from here. With that in mind, I’m not too sure that further pursuing any difference of opinion we may have would be worth it (at least not here).
I really do like new stuff 🙂 That’s one of the reasons I go to the IT-programmer course in my college.
And I admin, you’re true, many people are afraid of new stuff (and even many of my friends in college have it hard to adopt new stuff).
The thing I just can’t understand is, why it’s hard to tag something [h264@h10p] or something like that. The main reason these tags were introduced was compatibility and ability to play (divx/xvid era vs h264). Why can’t we update the tags? (Again for the sake of compatibility).
You’re right, there’s no point in us talking/arguing about it; we’re not the ones who decide what to do 🙂 I originally just wanted an answer to the question “why?“.
BTW I like your thoughts , I’d really like to “talk” to you in real-time 🙂
It’s quite simple, just ask yourself “What’s next?”. If we start labeling stuff with Hi10P, then there might be people that want to know which Level the video is encoded in. Or how many Ref-Frames. Or how many B-Frames. Or simply if it’s DXVA-compatible. And then we would have a filename like [Coalgirls]_Some_Series_(1920×1080,H.264,Hi10P,L5.1,CSS4:2:0,Rf16,Bf12,merange32,DXVA=LOLno_Blu-ray_FLAC) … See the problem? And everything is still part of the H.264 standard, so why label it? It’s not our problem/concern if your setup can’t fully handle the H.264 standards. And who knows what will be next, maybe 4:2:2 chroma subsampling.
@gazsipiszi – I’m at a loss as to how we would go about exchanging emails securely. Do you do IRC or IM? (I use Kopete for an IM client and XChat for IRC). Perhaps we could meet somewhere of your choosing? (I’d be uncomfortable hijacking this comment thread further for purposes of communicating on other subjects.)
In the interest of simplifying things here, I grant authorization to those with Moderator’s privileges to share my email address from this comment with gazsipiszi (via email notification) if that is possible. If that is not possible, let me know, please.
1 question remained unanswered. Then why even bother with [h264] and [FLAC] … tagging? The sole reason for tagging was to know if one could play the file or not (or at least have a chance to do so – and this is the point where your argument of loooooong tags loses; ability to play different b-frames, etc. is much lax even on hardware players in that front, dxva supports nearly nothing, yet plays nearly everything).
If you don’t care about DXVA, about compatibility, about anything but computers with a half-decent processor then what’s the point of tagging?
(Back in the good old divx days no one even bothered to put a tag.)
1. I have tons of mail addresses, so it doesn’t really matter if one gets publicly known, but I’ll put in a picture on imageshack to at least try and avoid spambots xd
2. I have msn, and can use irc.
3. Love Linux XD
Actually, we aren’t even tagging H.264 on our Blu-ray releases, and for TV releases it will be changed too, since everything is encoded in H.264 anyway these days. However, this is not the case for FLAC, it’s an important feature of our releases, so we tag it.
Amen to that then 🙂 And keep up the good work.
My patience delivered.
at last…it’s finish 😀
i’ll wait for BDs 😀
Recent comments make me giggle. It reminds me of when matroska files first came around. They were buggy and many shunned the new container (myself included). Now of course basic matroska playback is capable on tons of devices. Anime encoding has always pushed the bleeding edge for what is playable and possible for maximum video/sound quality with minimum file size. I’m currently doing the same thing I did when matroska was new. I grab the highest quality file and if I can’t currently play it I still archive it and patiently wait for codecs/hardware/upgrades to my own PCs to allow perfect playback.
Last time I tried to play a video that was made with this new encode process through my PS3 Media it did not work properly (crazy colors and shit everywere) so I just have a question. If I hook up my laptop through VGA to my monitor am I missing out on a lot of detail/color/etc. as opposed to if it was through HDMI? (sadly no HDMI nor DVI on laptop ;_; )
The pic is awesome!
[quote]If we start labeling stuff with Hi10P, then there might be people that want to know which Level the video is encoded in. Or how many Ref-Frames. Or how many B-Frames. Or simply if it’s DXVA-compatible.[/quote]
That’s a bogus argument.
The reason you can get away with not tagging as h.264 now is that it’s -expected-. It’s the default. It’s the norm. It’s ubiquitous. Pretty much everyone knows what it is, and the vast majority of devices being made today can play it (even if in limited form). All those encoding options are things that are highly variable (chosen per encoder), and except for highly specialized needs (eg: IPod playback, which again are likely to be labelled as such) can have most values work perfectly fine on most systems.
Compare with when h.264 first pushed onto the scene. It was horribly CPU-intensive compared to divx variants. New codecs had to be downloaded. Non-computer devices certainly couldn’t play it (though they also couldn’t play divx at that time either, they did get divx playback long before they got h.264 playback).
It was tagged because it was notably different from the standard of the time. It continued to be tagged to distinguish it from the ‘old’ standard (divx et al), because it takes a while for the old standard to be supplanted by the new one. People -still- make divx encodes today, though the market (for anime, at least) has dwindled to very specialized needs. (For live action stuff, divx still seems to cover like 90% of encodes. :p )
So we’re now at the point where the old can be fully deprecated and the new becomes the ‘expected’, to the point where you shouldn’t really need to specify that you’re using h.264, but rather specify if you’re using something substantially different from that. IE: divx, or, in this case, hi10p.
Because hi10p has entered the ring as the next “new thing”. It is not the default; it is not expected; it is not ubiquitous; it requires the newest codecs, can’t be played on any devices, can’t be played on low-power systems, and currently requires fairly extensive guides to help a lot of people to even get it to work right on regular computers.
It needs to be labelled because it is substantially different from the current standard in terms of usability, and is going to be listed not only on your own site, but on multiple amalgamation sites that have a highly varied audience that is largely -not- on the bleeding edge.
Until such time as hi10p becomes the de facto standard, it should be treated as distinct from the current expected default.
And on the other side of things, the more prominent the use of hi10p is (ie: how often people come across material marked with that tag), the more pressure there is on those said device makers to make their products capable of playing it. If there’s no indication of how popular this encoding mechanism is, how likely are you to get manufacturers to notice and support it, taking it to the level where it’s ubiquitous enough to become a new de facto standard?
In addition, there are people that -want- the hi10p encodes. By not labeling them as such, you make it more difficult for them to find the high-quality versions of the files they’re looking for.
>and currently requires fairly extensive guides to help a lot of people to even get it to work right on regular computers.
Download the most recent CCCP and install it. OH MY GOD WHAT A LONG AND COMPLICATED GUIDE! EXCUSE ME WHILE I SLICE MY WRISTS!
I will refer to our mantra. We will do what we want, and do not care about your opinion.
@David, and everyone else arguing about this whole ordeal: I don’t really know whether you guys were actually thinking you could get them to listen obediently to your requests or not. As for you, David, you posted the longest thing here. Idk why you would post something so long.
Anyhow, earlier when I saw the final batch out, I expected comments being directly related to Yuru Yuri, not this huge debate about tagging Hi10.
I felt the need to share my fairly redundant opinion. Also; thanks for the release as always.
@XiThau As Yuru-Yuri is one of the first shows (excluding hi10p re-encodes) to be released in the hi10 profile, I would imagine it would be the right place to decide these types of things, like the huge Doki hi10p post on their site.
then go to Doki’s site and talk about that on that post, not here
Contrary to popular belief guys, CoalGirls is here to release good quality shit, to people that want it, and already know how to VIEW it. That’s basically what they mean by their mantra. You should be happy they’ll even REPLY to your shitty posts about HOW YOU WANT THINGS, let alone make a guide to help you be less of a retard. Then you even have the nerve to ARGUE with them about how they do things? How dense can you get? Please, go learn ABOUT technology before arguing about it. That goes for everything in the world of course, not just tech.
What I’m saying is, if you’re still using CCCP in the first place, you not only probably don’t belong here, but you CERTAINLY don’t have any valid opinions to give out regarding how you want things.
@someguy Rai was simply replying to me. I do not believe Rai partook in the debate. Don’t feel like checking earlier posts.
1. Contrary to your belief I viewed and even encoded h264 before it got widespread.
Nobody talked about how we can’t play hi10p.
2. I never said I WANT things… Asking why they can’t/won’t do something and giving an oppinion why it’d be good isn’t the same… If you can’t understand the difference (or can’t read properly), that’d make you more of a retard than I am.
3. Who the hell amongst us asked how WE could play it?! (again learn to read)
4. Aside from MadVR and CoreAVC I don’t use any external codecs since 2006… (who said we use cccp?!)
5. I’m an IT college student with an unhealty love for machines… (but because of that, I see how stupid people can get around a computer, even amongst fellow students)
Thanks for the coal releases Coalgirls. Keep it coal daddio.
Yeah… what the Alpacas said. Looking forward to finishing this series, I am. (Hey…. isn’t an Alpaca like first cousin to a Llama? Kinda ties in to the OP/ED?)
Anyhoo, yeah, thanks again. You folks rock.
Ok, my Windows Media Player AND VideoLAN are having problems playing these (WMP wont even start the videos, and VLC keeps looping the first minute or so of the episode and the timing is WAY the hell off).
So, anyone else having these problems….use Media Player Classic (no problems).
@Dx6 For the love of Christ don’t use VLC, and WMP doesn’t support 10 bit
Just want to say many thanks as always for your great encodes 🙂
looks like there’s no size reduction
at least it’s better 🙂
There are a huge number of Windows laptops currently in use that max out at 720p 8-bit, and even then have some subtitle lag problems. Their hardware can’t run 720p 10-bit fast enough and never will.
If you’re about the technology, you would say “Screw those poor people from around the world! I want my finer grained color differentiation even at 720p!” Or whatever. But if you’re about the anime, you want as many people to be able to enjoy it as possible. And 720p 8-bit is wonderful to watch. I never hear anime enthusiasts complain about the video quality of 720p 8-bit. You know what such folk are talking about right now instead? “Can Ika Musume really fly like in the OP?” Do you get it? Well, it doesn’t matter if you do or don’t. This is a hardware cycle and hardware cycles run their course.
I want a bigger boat. I want to include as many people as possible. So I’m fine with all the higher options that there can be 1080p 10-bit, 720p 10-bit, great. Just don’t throw other people overboard, as Coalgirls has decided to do.
As for labeling your files, it doesn’t matter. As long as all you do is 10-bit, people who don’t want that just have to ignore all of your titles. Of course, most of us assume you don’t label your files or torrents because you know your downloads would fall sharply if you didn’t sucker in some innocents.
Right now there are a few groups that have chosen to go exclusively 10-bit. Three of these groups are Coalgirls, Commie, and Daiz/Underwater. What swell bunkmates you’re sleeping with these days.
From one extreme to another. CRF16 is completely excessive for 10-bit. Why don’t you try intermediate values instead of jumping from too high to too low?
I did try every value with a precision of 0.5. What I found is the optimal file size/quality gain = what you would do it at anyways.
“Coalgirls – We will do what we want, and do not care about your opinion.”
At the bottom of the page. And I don’t think is there just because.
It’s this 10-bit project ,what EDv0 means?
So you’re saying that the anime community should hold itself back from making advances in encoding technology because not everyone can support the shiny new encodes, and let the ones who can’t support it catch up “in the future” before making the change. If that were the case, we’d still be encoding in XviD. If that were the case, why did we ever switch to matroska. If that were the case, why would we ever support soft subbing. Hell why did we ever even stop just distributing fansubs on VCRs through the mail, why bother with DVDs, then digital distribution, just because more people in this world have a TV and a VCR than a mid-range computer.
subs is the same as horrible subs so its not entirely accurate
Thanks for the release Coalgirl. As the anime community always has, and always will, it has adapted to the latest technology. Why? Just Cause. I think putting hi10p in the title would be a little too much. However for the time being, it should remain in the description so that at least then when people bitch about not being able to play the files, you can say “Read the fooking description” and ignore their cries for help. Yurirarararayuriyuri!!
btw… nobody noticed the new k-on banner… should we hope for a k-on movie…. coalgirls bersion?
A show with almost no action scenes -> 500 MB per episode with Hi10p (720p)
The fuck? CRF16 this or that, what happened? I downloaded your Bakemonogatari in 720p and every episode is around 330MB, and it looks really good.
What’s wrong? I’ll stick to TV in this case.
^quick n dirty translation: “WAHHHHHHHHH WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH, I IZ BABYYYYYYYYY… WAHHHHHHHHH WAAAAAAAAHHHHHH”
So is the BD 10-bit just like the TV version?
coalgirl said “From this point on, if you see my name on something, assume it’s 10-bit.”
I do agree with the haters that I would like to see 10b tags, but for the opposite reason. As has been said, its like magic pixie dust that makes the files smaller while cleaning up banding at the same time. It would make it easier to choose which group gets archived.
Any chance you could sort the completed projects list on the right side of the page in to 2 subgenres:
– Namely 8-bit and 10-bit.
It’s quite hard to see which of your older projects are 10-bit right now. At the same time this will keep you from adding 10-bit or 8-bit tags to each filename.
No, and here’s why.
You’re expected to be able to play 10-bit if you DL from us. Anyone who can play 10-bit can play 8-bit. So it doesn’t matter what bit depth any project is.
In addition, I don’t add tags to each file name in the first place.
True enough, personally I like to know what is 10-bit and whats 8-bit, mainly because of the banding-issues involved with 8-bit. Oh well, thanks for replying.
Just one last remark:
“In addition, I don’t add tags to each file name in the first place”.<- I got this, this is pretty much smeared out over all the comments of your latest projects. There was no way I couldn't get this. I offered a mere suggestion in order to stop the entire "tag"-comment chain. Seems it fell short of the mark though :P.
I'm kinda surprised you can keep on baring all these same comments.
Your truly one hard-core person XD.
Well, if you really wanna know if an encode is 8 or 10 bit, then just go check anidb, their site will tell you that.
Soredemo Machi wa Mawatteiru, maybe?
@dymitr if source has banding 10bit x264 cant help you there
@revo, he probably just meant that he’d like to know if a file is 8-bit, since 8-bit had more banding issues. So he knows what to expect / to look for 10-bit alternatives with possibly less banding issues.
You can make 8bit with less banding issues than 10bit
8 bit or 10bit does not tell you anything about banding
Hence the “possibly less banding”. At the same filesize, more banding will be present. If it will be major / noticeable is another thing.
OK Ill say it…
That is NOT a Picture from Yuru Yuri!!!!
Well i haven’t seen Yuru Yuri but i can tell you without a doubt that that’s not it.
That image is from one of my Favorite animes of all time which btw isn’t subbed here 🙁
Its from “Puella Magi Madoka Magica”.
The girl on the left is Sayaka Miki <(O.OO.O)>Kyoko Sakura.
That is all…
This comment is either a troll or just really stupid, so I’ll just assume the second.
1. The picture is Toshino Kyouko cosplaying as Sakura Kyouko, and of Funami Yui cosplaying as Sayaka Miki.
Forgive me… i’m special!
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